[ { "role": "user", "content": "See%20if%20you%20can%20find%20any%20materials%20on%20the%20SSA%20website%20about%20SSDI%20receipients%20starting%20small%20businesses%20or%20becoming%20self-employed.%20Perhaps%20with%20a%20goal%20to%20the%20route%20to%20success." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s a detailed breakdown of what the Social Security Administration (SSA) offers\u2014on its official site\u2014related to SSDI/SSI recipients starting small businesses or becoming self-employed. I\u2019ve focused on programs, requirements, and step-by-step guidance drawn from SSA resources. \n\n---\n\n## Key Programs & Supports for Starting a Business While on SSDI/SSI\n\n### 1. Plan to Achieve Self-Support (PASS)\n- **What it is**: A PASS is a written plan to reach a specific work goal\u2014like starting your own business. It lets you set aside income or resources (other than SSI payments) to pay for expenses related to your work goal. If approved, the SSA won\u2019t count that set-aside money when deciding your SSI eligibility or payment amount. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-plans-self-support.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n- **How it helps self-employed/aspiring entrepreneurs**: You can use PASS funds for startup costs\u2014education, training, equipment, supplies needed to launch a business. A self-employment business plan is required. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/%20lnx/0500870026?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n### 2. Ticket to Work & Employment Support\n- **What it is**: A voluntary program for people aged 18 through 64 receiving SSDI or SSI based on disability. It connects beneficiaries to Employment Networks (ENs) that offer free employment services. ([choosework.ssa.gov](https://choosework.ssa.gov/blog/2025-08-27-6-essential-tips-for-self-employment-success.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- **Specific to starting a business**: According to SSA FAQs, you *can* use Ticket to Work to pursue self-employment or to start a business. You should communicate your business goal to the EN early in the process. Not all ENs may take those goals, so it\u2019s something to get clear with them. ([choosework.ssa.gov](https://choosework.ssa.gov/about/faqs?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## SSA Rules & Requirements If You Go the Self-Employment Route\n\n### Net Earnings & SGA (Substantial Gainful Activity)\n- If you're self-employed, SSA uses something called **Net Earnings from Self-Employment (NESE)** instead of gross income. This is \u201cgross revenue minus business expenses,\u201d then adjusted by a factor, to determine how much your earnings count. ([workwithoutlimits.org](https://www.workwithoutlimits.org/siteassets/public-benefits-fact-sheets/ssdi-self-employment.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n- Whether earnings are \u201ctoo much\u201d is measured by the SGA limit. If your work exceeds SGA, your SSDI benefits may be affected. SSA has special rules (\"Three Tests\" or the \"Countable Income Test\") depending on how long you've been receiving benefits. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/definedisability.htm?tl=0&utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n### Business Plan (Required for PASS & SSA Evaluations)\n- If using PASS with a self-employment goal, you need to provide a detailed business plan. SSA outlines what that business plan must cover: business description, market analysis, projected costs and earnings, timeline, etc. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/%20lnx/0500870026?utm_source=openai)) \n- The plan will be evaluated to check if it\u2019s likely to succeed (i.e. will your business generate enough profit to at least replace or significantly reduce your dependence on disability payments) and whether you\u2019ve accounted for support, debts, ongoing expenses etc. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/%20lnx/0500870026?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Putting It All Together: A Possible Route to Success\n\nHere\u2019s a suggested sequence of steps based on SSA\u2019s guidance and resources. These are general\u2014your path may vary depending on your goals, state, and specific impairments.\n\n| Stage | What You Do | Why It Helps |\n|-------|-------------|---------------------|\n| **Explore Your Business Idea** | Think about what skills you already have, what type of business you can reasonably run, where and when you\u2019ll work. Research your market, costs, competitors. | Ensures your business idea is realistic and aligned with your abilities. Helps when writing your business plan. SSA expects this. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10095.pdf?time=1745295587362&utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Connect with a Support Provider (EN or VR Agency)** | Find an Employment Network via the Ticket to Work program or your State Vocational Rehabilitation services. Tell them you want to start a business so they can assist in planning, counseling, accessing resources. | They can help with business planning, navigating benefit rules, reporting, even funding for startup expenses in some cases. ([choosework.ssa.gov](https://choosework.ssa.gov/blog/2025-08-27-6-essential-tips-for-self-employment-success.html?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Write a Detailed Business Plan** | With help (from EN, VR, an SBA counselor, or other resource), create a business plan that covers: what products/services you\u2019ll offer, your customers, how you\u2019ll market, cost estimates, location, how much you need to earn to support living expenses. | Required for PASS approval and demonstrates capacity to make the business sustainable. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/%20lnx/0500870026?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Use PASS (If SSI or Might Qualify)** | Submit your SSA-545-BK form (the PASS application) along with the business plan. Specify how funds/resources will be set aside and used over a defined timeframe. | Helps reduce countable income, maintain or increase SSI payments, protect eligibility while you work towards building your business. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-plans-self-support.htm?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Track Earnings & Expenses Carefully** | Keep good records of revenues, business expenses, hours worked. Report your self-employment income to SSA. Be aware of the SGA limit and when your earnings might affect benefits. | Ensures accuracy in SSA\u2019s net earnings calculation (NESE), protect benefits and avoid surprises. ([workwithoutlimits.org](https://www.workwithoutlimits.org/siteassets/public-benefits-fact-sheets/ssdi-self-employment.pdf?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Adjust and Scale or Pivot** | Regularly review whether the business is meeting its goals, whether you need more support, or whether the plan (including PASS) needs adjustments. Once profitable and stable, decide whether benefits still needed. | SSA looks for profit and self-support in long term; adjustments may be needed to maintain eligibility or transition off benefits if possible. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/%20lnx/0500870026?utm_source=openai)) |\n\n---\n\n## Additional Resources from SSA Website\n\n- **\u201c6 Essential Tips for Self-Employment Success\u201d** \u2013 A blog post from SSA outlining practical tips for starting a business while receiving disability benefits. Offers ideas on business planning, using free tools, working with support networks, and using Ticket to Work. ([choosework.ssa.gov](https://choosework.ssa.gov/blog/2025-08-27-6-essential-tips-for-self-employment-success.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- **The Red Book (\u201cWork Incentives & Employment Supports\u201d)** \u2013 Contains detailed information about how work and self-employment affect SSDI and SSI, what rules apply, what supports exist. Good for understanding earnings limits, SGA, work incentive programs. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/ssdi-and-ssi-employments-supports.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\nIf you like, I can pull up a sample PASS-oriented business plan template or local Employment Networks in your state that support self-employment. Would that be helpful?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20most%20of%20that%20I%20don%27t%20think%20helped%2C%20because%20it%20applied%20to%20a%20SSI%20receiptent%20which%20I%27m%20not.%20I%20get%20SSDI%2C%20as%20a%20blind%20guy%2C%20an%20I%27m%20allows%20to%20earn%20up%20to%20approx.%20%242700%20a%20month%2C%20wihtout%20losing%20a%20single%20benefit.%20The%20challenge%20is%20a%20business%20at%20time%20varies%2C%20so%20I%20need%20to%20bank%20money%20in%20the%20business%20account%20and%20draw%20a%20salary.%20So%2C%20the%20path%20to%20do%20that%3F%20Can%20you%20find%20any%20matierals%20about%20that%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s what the SSA says (as of 2026) about how SSDI works for blind recipients who want to start a business, bank money inside the business, and \u201cpay themselves a salary,\u201d while staying under SGA (Substantial Gainful Activity). This is legal interpretation and shouldn\u2019t replace professional advice (benefits, tax, or legal).\n\n---\n\n## Fundamental Rules for Blind SSDI Recipients\n\n- The **SGA limit** for blind individuals in 2026 is **$2,830/month** in countable earnings. If your net earnings exceed that, SSA considers that \u201csubstantial gainful activity,\u201d which can trigger termination of SSDI benefits. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- For self-employed blind SSDI recipients, SSA uses earnings alone (net of allowable business deductions) to evaluate SGA. Time worked or tasks performed are *not* considered, which simplifies things. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/blindrules.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Understanding \u201cNet Earnings from Self-Employment\u201d (NESE)\n\n- NESE is how SSA figures earnings for self-employed work. It\u2019s *gross business revenue minus allowable deductions and business expenses*. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0500820200?utm_source=openai)) \n- SSA divides yearly net profit (after deductions) evenly across each month of the taxable year to determine *monthly NESE*. This means even if your income fluctuates, SSA spreads it over 12 months for their calculations. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0500820210?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## What \u201cBanking Money\u201d and \u201cPaying Yourself a Salary\u201d Means Under SSA\n\nYou can structure your business so that revenue accumulates in a business (or holding) account and you \u201cpay yourself\u201d a salary or draw regularly. Under SSA rules, what matters is how you report and account for:\n\n- **Net earnings**, not gross revenue. Money in your business account that hasn\u2019t been withdrawn or paid to you as wages or self-employment income generally isn\u2019t directly relevant unless it increases your NESE. If the money is reinvested in business expenses\u2014that\u2019s good and lowers NESE. \n- **Withdrawals or salary must be accounted for** as business expenses or personal income, depending on business structure. SSA expects accuracy in tax returns and in showing deductions. If you \u201cpay yourself,\u201d it should come out of net earnings (post-expenses). SSA cares about what\u2019s left after business costs. \n- **Taxes, depreciation, cost of supplies, equipment, etc.**, all reduce your NESE. This lets you \u201cbank\u201d revenue in the business before you take it out as salary. The less that\u2019s treated as personal income, the lower your monthly NESE, helping you stay under SGA. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0500820210?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Planning a Structure That Lets You Bank & Withdraw Wisely\n\nHere are steps and practices based on SSA and IRS guidance to help you set up your business to stay under the SGA while running your business:\n\n1. **Choose a business structure** (sole proprietorship, LLC, S-Corp, partnership) that allows you to separate business income, expenses, and personal draw. This helps you distinguish between what is \u201cbusiness retained earnings\u201d and what you pay yourself. \n\n2. **Track expenses carefully**, including:\n - Equipment, materials, rent, utilities,\n - Assistive tech, transportation, specialized tools needed because of blindness,\n - Depreciation, home office (if applicable), etc.\n\n These deductions reduce your NESE. All must be documented, ideally with receipts/invoices. \n\n3. **Establish a regular personal draw or \u201csalary\u201d**, i.e. paying yourself a consistent amount from the business profits, not just taking all revenue. Be sure business has enough left for expenses. If your business structure permits, document this as wages or owner\u2019s draw.\n\n4. **Maintain proper financial records**, including:\n - Monthly profit & loss statements,\n - Bank statements (business & personal separate),\n - Evidence of how money in business is used or drawn out.\n\n5. **Report earnings to SSA**: Although SSDI doesn\u2019t fluctuate like SSI, you must still report changes in work status or earnings if your earning\u2019s approach or exceed SGA. SSA evaluates if you stay eligible. For self-employment, net earnings (from tax returns using Schedule C / SE, etc.) are used. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/ssdi-and-ssi-employments-supports.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n6. **Use SSA\u2019s Work Incentives & Supports**, especially:\n - Subsidy and special conditions (if any extra help or accommodation),\n - IRWE (Impairment-Related Work Expenses) if you incur additional out-of-pocket costs because of your blindness to operate your business. Those may reduce countable earnings. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/ssdi-and-ssi-employments-supports.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n7. **Check your SGA status regularly**: If NESE exceeds $2,830 in a month (for blind individuals in 2026), SSA sees it as SGA, possibly ending benefits. So plan your draw or distributions to be within what NESE allows, accounting for deductions. \n\n---\n\n## Example: How It Might Look in Practice\n\nImagine:\n\n- Your business gross revenue one month: $5,000 \n- Business expenses (equipment, supplies, assistive tech, travel): $2,500 \n- Net profit: $2,500 \n- Assume deductions are allowed for all that \u2013 NESE = ~$2,500 \n\nIn that case you\u2019re under the $2,830 blind SGA, so SSDI would continue for that month. You could take a salary or draw of, say, $1,800 and leave $700 in retained earnings inside the business to cover future expenses or slow months. \n\nIf next month revenue drops, expenses might drop too, so the NESE might go to $1,500, which is still under SGA.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can pull up sample P&L templates specifically made for blind business owners on SSDI, or help you estimate how much business revenue vs draw you could safely sustain over time. Do you want that?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "I%27d%20like%20to%20hear%20more%20about%20these%20templates%2C%20who%20made%20them%20up%3F%20Not%20you%20right%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s what I found about existing templates (or documents) that people use when dealing with SSDI and self-employment \u2014 profit & loss (P&L) or earnings breakdowns \u2014 including who made them and how SSA uses them. None of them are from *me*, but some are from SSA, nonprofit organizations, or independent creators. \n\n---\n\n## SSA-Provided & Required Documents\n\nThese aren\u2019t \u201ctemplates\u201d to plan ahead with, but rather official forms and statements you\u2019ll need to fill out (often annually or when asked by SSA) to show what your business income and expenses are.\n\n| Form | What It Asks For / Includes | Who Created It / Their Role |\n|-------|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|\n| **SSA-820-BK: Work Activity Report \u2013 Self-Employed** | Requires gross vs. net self-employment income for previous years, expected income for current year, attachments of tax returns (Schedule C, Schedule SE) if available. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-820.pdf?cm_sp=ExternalLink-_-Federal-_-SSA&utm_source=openai)) | Created and used by SSA. You\u2019ll fill it out when reporting self-employment earnings for continuing disability reviews or benefit questions. |\n| **SSA-7163 Statement of Work or Self-Employment** | Includes tables for past years: gross receipts, business expenses, and net earnings, plus expected future net earnings. ([socialsecurity.gov](https://www.socialsecurity.gov/online/ssa-7163.pdf?utm_source=openai)) | SSA form again, used for documenting your self-employment income in detail\u2014helps SSA judge whether your work is SGA. |\n\nThese forms give a rough template to follow: list gross income, subtract business expenses, get net profit, and show expectations for upcoming periods.\n\n---\n\n## Nonprofits & Independent \u201cTemplates\u201d\n\nThese are models, P&L templates, or business plan tools, some of which are especially for people with disabilities or those starting businesses under special constraints.\n\n| Resource | What It Offers | Who Made It |\n|----------|----------------|-------------|\n| **Journey 2 Success** | Free business plan template meant for entrepreneurs with disabilities. | Created by *Journey 2 Success*, a nonprofit that supports business creation for people with disabilities. ([journey2success.org](https://journey2success.org/?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **ProfitAndLossTemplate.com** | Self-employed / freelancer P&L template. Categories lined up with IRS Schedule C. Helps track profit vs. expenses. | Independent educational site. Not tied to SSA; helpful for tax/work tracking. ([profitandlosstemplate.com](https://profitandlosstemplate.com/self-employed?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **National Disability Institute (NDI)** | Financial wellness tools, worksheets, guides. Some templates/checklists for budget, financial behavior, goal-setting. Not always focused specifically on P&L but supportive. | Nonprofit with a focus on financial inclusion for people with disabilities. ([nationaldisabilityinstitute.org](https://www.nationaldisabilityinstitute.org/downloads/?utm_source=openai)) |\n\n---\n\n## How These Are Used in Relation to SSDI\n\n- **SSA\u2019s Forms**: SSA will accept documents like tax returns (Schedules C/F, SE), or your breakdowns using SSA-7163 / SSA-820-BK. These are official submissions for evaluating whether your earnings (net self-employment) stay under the SGA threshold. \n\n- **External Templates** help you get organized: build monthly/annual P&L, track business expenses, classify deductions. These aren\u2019t SSA forms but *can help you prepare documents that match what SSA asks for*. Using them can make your P&L consistent with tax forms and its entries clearer to SSA \u2013 especially net profits.\n\n- **Custom Templates for Disability Entrepreneurship**: These may include extra lines for impairment-related expenses, assistive technology, or unusual costs. These are important because SSA will look at expense deductions that are ordinary and necessary for the business\u2014including ones connected to disability (IRWEs etc.) when allowed. Templates from nonprofits may help you factor those in.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can share a few downloadable templates that match exactly what SSA expects (with columns for gross, expenses, net, projections), and highlight which lines matter to SSA so you can use them. Do you want those kinds of documents?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20correct%20me%20if%20I%27m%20wrong%2C%20I%27d%20read%20a%20book%20about%20this%20kind%20of%20stuff.%20But%20I%20was%20under%20the%20impression%20that%20a%20SSDI%20Blind%20Guy%20could%20start%20a%20business%2C%20and%20setup%20a%20business%20checking%20account.%20And%20the%20SSA%20would%20ear-mark%20such%20as%20a%20account%20so%20taht%20it%20stood%20outside%20of%20his%20earnings%20and%20assets.%20Such%20taht%20the%20business%20coudl%20earn%20say%20a%20million%20a%20year%2C%20but%20as%20long%20as%20the%20salary%20paid%20to%20the%20SSDI%20Blind%20guy%20was%20under%20the%20SGA%20of%20%242800%20per%20month%2C%20all%20was%20good%2C%20even%20if%20the%20business%20bank%20account%20had%20a%20substatial%20amount%20in%20it.%20Am%20I%20wrong%20about%20that%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "You\u2019re *mostly right* \u2014 some parts are accurate and others need clarification. I dug into SSA rules (Title II SSDI, not SSI) and how they treat business income, business bank accounts, assets, and what's \u201cear-marked.\u201d Here's a breakdown.\n\n---\n\n## What SSDI *Doesn't* Do\n\n- **No asset/resource limit**: Unlike SSI, SSDI (Title II disability insurance) is *not* a needs-based program. That means SSA doesn\u2019t set a maximum for how much cash, savings, or \u201cnet worth\u201d you can have. Your wealth or assets do *not* disqualify you from SSDI. ([congress.gov](https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/R/PDF/R44948/R44948.12.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n- **Counts net earnings, not gross**, and only for SGA purposes. What matters for maintaining SSDI benefits once you\u2019re working (or self-employed) is whether your *net* earnings (after legitimate business expenses) exceed the SGA threshold. For blind individuals in 2026, that\u2019s **$2,830/month** countable net earnings. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/definedisability.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\nSo in general, having a large balance in a business checking account isn\u2019t automatically bad under SSDI, as long as your *net earnings* stay below SGA.\n\n---\n\n## What SSDI *Does* Look For / Rules to Follow\n\nBecause SSDI is based on earnings and work activity (not on resource/asset limits), here\u2019s what SSA will consider:\n\n- **Earnings must be \u201ccountable\u201d**: Revenue minus allowable business expenses gives you net earnings. That\u2019s what\u2019s compared to SGA. If your net profit (averaged monthly over the tax year or using SSA\u2019s method for self-employment) goes above SGA, your benefits may be suspended or ended. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-64-030.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n- **Expenses and deductions matter**: Allowable business expenses reduce your net earnings. That includes equipment, supplies, mileage, assistive technologies, etc. Also, IRWEs (Impairment-Related Work Expenses) may reduce your net countable earnings under some conditions. For blind SSDI, SSA uses earnings only\u2014so deductions are especially important. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-64-030.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## About \u201cEarmarking\u201d a Business Account: How That Fits In\n\nHere\u2019s what I found regarding your idea that money in a business account could be declared outside of what SSA counts (i.e., \u201cear-marked\u201d):\n\n- **Separate business account**: You *can* and probably should have a separate business bank account. It helps with bookkeeping, distinguishing business revenue vs. personal income, and showing expenses. That clarity helps when SSA or the IRS looks at your net earnings. \n- **SSA\u2019s view of accounts**: For SSDI, SSA does *not* count your business bank balance as a \u201cresource\u201d in the way SSI does. There is no resource cap. So just having money saved in the business account isn\u2019t what causes problems \u2014 it\u2019s when you *pay yourself* (or derive net earnings) that count. \n\n- **Restrictions or \u201cconditionally excluded\u201d accounts** are a different story under SSI; SSDI doesn\u2019t use those same rules. So \u201cearmarking\u201d probably refers more to SSI rules (or to setting up things like a trust or conservatorship), which doesn\u2019t apply in the same way to SSDI. At least, there\u2019s no rule that if you have a million dollars in your business bank account, SSA will penalize you *unless* your net earnings are over SGA. \n\n---\n\n## What Seems Misunderstood or Needs Caution\n\n- While having a big business balance doesn\u2019t disqualify you automatically, **if you\u2019re taking profits out (salary or draws)**, those reduce your business\u2019s net profit by countable amounts and may push your net earnings over SGA. \n- SSA looks at long-term averages or annual profit reports. Even if one month your profit is under, large profits in other months can average out to being over SGA. \n- Documentation is key: SSA may request tax returns, profit & loss statements, or Form Schedule C if you're a sole proprietor. If your business is more complex (LLC, Corps), SSA might look at what you pay yourself vs. retained earnings to understand net profit.\n\n---\n\n## Bottom Line\n\nYou\u2019re mostly correct:\n\n- Yes, you can start a business and have a business checking account. \n- Yes, you can accumulate business revenue (money in that account) so long as it\u2019s not \u201cdistributed\u201d in a way that increases your **net earnings** above SGA. \n- As a blind SSDI recipient, your net earnings must stay at or below **$2,830/month** in 2026 (for countable earnings) to maintain full benefits. \n\nWhat\u2019s probably wrong:\n\n- SSA does *not* \u201cear-mark\u201d business account funds formally in SSDI so that they never count at all. They focus on what your *earnings* are after you\u2019ve taken what you\u2019ve taken (salary, draws) and expenses. \n- If you have a very large amount in your business account, that doesn\u2019t hurt \u2014 unless those funds are effectively counted as earnings (via withdrawals or distributions) after expenses.\n\n---\n\nIf you like, I can pull up the specific SSA regulation texts (\u201cPOMS\u201d, \u201cRed Book\u201d) that show how they define net earnings vs salary, especially for blind SSDI recipients. That way you\u2019ll have them for your own reference." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20I%20think%20the%20challenge%20here%2C%20is%20terminology%2C%20and%20I%27md%20thinkig%20the%20SSA%27s%20earnings%20is%20different%20from%20the%20IrS.%20So%2C%20here%27s%20a%20hypothetical%2C%20and%20you%20see%20if%20the%20regulations%20let%20it%20play%20out%20for%20me%20as%20a%20Blind%20Guy%2C%20on%20SSDI.%20My%20Sole%20Proprieter%20LLC%20makes%20%2410%2C000%20a%20month%2C%20NET.%20It%20pays%20me%20a%20salary%20of%20%242700%20a%20month.%20After%2012%20months%20would%20I%20be%20in%20violation%20of%20SGA%3F%20In%20other%20words%20is%20SGA%20what%20my%20LLC%20pays%20me%2C%20minus%20expenses%20or%20is%20SGA%20what%20the%20LLC%20which%20is%20a%20sole-propritership%20make%20in%20Profit." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "That\u2019s a great hypothetical \u2014 and digging into SSA\u2019s rules shows that you\u2019d be closer, but technically still over the SGA limit in your example. Here\u2019s a line-by-line breakdown using SSA regulations to see how your scenario likely plays out, with the definitions and what \u201csalary\u201d means under the rules.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA Means by Key Terms\n\nBefore deciding if you're over SGA, SSA uses specific definitions:\n\n- \u201cNet earnings from self-employment\u201d = gross revenue from your business minus all allowable business expenses, depreciation, etc. Then for SSA, you multiply by 0.9235 (which accounts for the employer share of FICA taxes) to get what SSA calls your \u201cnet earnings from self-employment.\u201d ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.12/handbook-1200.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- For *blind SSDI recipients*, SSA uses **only earnings** to decide if you\u2019re engaging in SGA \u2014 they *do not* factor in hours worked or exactly what services you do. They only check if your earnings (countable earnings) go over the SGA threshold. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/blindrules.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n- The SGA monthly limit for blind people in 2026 is **$2,830**. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Your Hypothetical: SSA\u2019s View\n\nYou proposed:\n\n- Business earns **$10,000/month NET** (after business expenses).\n- You \u201cpay yourself a salary\u201d of **$2,700/month**.\n- So there\u2019s $7,300/month retained in business.\n\nThe question: after 12 months, would SSA see this as breaking SGA?\n\n---\n\n## What SSA Counts for SGA\n\nFor a sole proprietor/business owner:\n\n1. SSA doesn\u2019t \u201csee\u201d your salary separately in the same way an employer-employee situation might; your salary is a distribution of your net profit, or something derived from that profit. **SSA cares about your net earnings from self-employment** (i.e. total business profit after expenses and after any required adjustments) \u2014 not just what you \u201cpay yourself\u201d as \u2018salary\u2019. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.12/handbook-1200.html?utm_source=openai)) \n2. If your business net profits are $10,000/month (pre-\u201csalary\u201d deduction; your salary is part of profit distribution), then unless your expenses include something that further reduces this, SSA stakes its SGA test based on that whole net, not what you choose to draw out. The salary doesn\u2019t reduce countable earnings *unless* it's structured as a deductible business expense in calculating net earnings (for example in some business structures) and is valid under tax and SSA rules. In sole proprietorships, \u201csalary\u201d is often just you taking draw\u2014still part of net profit, not wages. \n\n---\n\n## Applying It\n\nGiven your numbers: \n\n- If your net profit is **$10,000**/month after expenses, then SSA multiplies that (if necessary by 0.9235), still gets something well above **$2,830/month**. \n\n- Even if you only \u201cpaid yourself\u201d $2,700, SSA would look at your profit (whatever you kept + whatever you paid) and likely say: since *net earnings* > SGA ($2,830), that is substantial gainful activity. \n\nSo yes \u2014 in that scenario, you\u2019d be violating the SGA limit, because your \u201csalary\u201d is just one way you distribute your profits, but countable earnings are far greater than the SGA threshold.\n\n---\n\n## How to Stay Under SGA in a Similar Setup\n\nIf you want a scenario that *works* under SSA\u2019s rules, you might do something like:\n\n- Adjust business expenses so that net profit is less than or equal to **$2,830/month** (or net profit \u00d7 0.9235).\n- Pay yourself a \u201csalary\u201d that\u2019s equal to or less than that net profit. So your draws/salary come from profits, but deductions and expenses are enough that your net doesn\u2019t exceed SGA. \n- Keep accurate bookkeeping and documentation, especially of expenses, depreciation, assistive/devices linked to your blindness that may offer additional deductions. \n\n---\n\nSo in short: **yes**, SSA\u2019s \u201cearning\u201d definition is different from IRS\u2019s \u201csalary\u201d concept in typical employment. But in your hypothetical, where your business nets $10,000/month and you \u201csalary\u201d yourself $2,700, your \u201csalary\u201d doesn\u2019t save you \u2014 SSA will look at the $10,000 (or what remains after required adjustments) to decide if you\u2019re over the $2,830 SGA limit.\n\nIf you want, I can run through a version of your numbers that *does* stay under SGA, showing how high your expenses or deductions would need to be (or how much profit you\u2019d need to leave in the business)." }, { "role": "user", "content": "O%2C%20so%20this%20ain%27t%20good%20I%20don%27t%20want%20a%20business%20model%20where%20its%20profits%20are%20directly%20linked%20to%20mine%20or%20SGA.%20You%20said%20some%20business%20structures)%20and%20is%20valid%20under%20tax%20and%20SSA%20rules%20So%20under%20what%20circumstances%20would%20my%20owned%20business%20profits%20be%20seperate%20from%20my%20slary.%20Some%20sort%20Corp.%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Yes \u2014 there *are* business structures that let you separate how much you pay yourself (as \u201cwages\u201d) from how much your business earns (\u201cprofits\u201d or \u201cdistributions\u201d) \u2014 and that structure can affect what SSA views as your earnings for SGA. But even those structures have limits and rules under SSA\u2019s disability program. Here are the options, their pros/cons, and what SSA says.\n\n---\n\n## Business Structures That Allow Separating Your Salary from Business Profit\n\n1. **C Corporation** \n - The corporation is its own legal entity. It pays *you* a salary as an employee (subject to payroll taxes and SSA reporting). \n - Profits left in the company (after expenses and your salary) belong to the corporation and do *not* get paid to you unless you take dividends or bonuses \u2014 which are treated differently under tax law. \n\n2. **S Corporation / LLC Electing S-Corp Status** \n - Similar to a C corp in terms of salary vs. distributions. Owners share in profits (\u201cpass-through\u201d) but can also pay themselves a salary. \n - The salary is subject to wage rules; the rest of the profit not paid out in salary is taken as distributions. Those distributions are *not wages* for tax purposes \u2014 thus not subject to payroll taxes. \n\n3. **Partnership or Standard Sole Proprietorship / Single-Member LLC (taxed as sole prop)** \n - In this setup, there\u2019s no salary: all profit is yours. You can take money out of the business (draws), but that doesn\u2019t change that net profit is what's looked at for SGA. \n\n---\n\n## What SSA Says (SGA, Self-Employment, Business Structure)\n\nHere\u2019s how Social Security treats each situation, per SSA rules and POMS:\n\n- If you are **self-employed**, SSA determines *net earnings from self-employment* based on **gross business income minus allowable business expenses** (IRS deductions, depreciation, etc.) ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)). After that, SSA multiplies by 0.9235 to account for the employer share of FICA taxes. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.12/handbook-1200.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n- For **corporations**, especially small ones or S-corps, the structure matters. SSA\u2019s *POMS* notes that: \n > \u201cIf an entity is treated as a corporation for federal tax purposes, a member might receive wages on the same basis as an officer of a corporation.\u201d ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0302101500?utm_source=openai))\n\n- SSA\u2019s *SSR 12-1p* (policy on blind self-employment) clarifies a few things: \n \u2022 They evaluate whether your work as a self-employed blind person is SGA by looking at *countable income* from the business. This includes net profit\u2014**not just what you pay yourself as salary**. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai)) \n \u2022 They allow deductions for reasonable unpaid help, IRWEs (impairment-related work expenses), etc. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## When Structure Helps \u2014 But Only So Much\n\nEven under corporate structures, SSA still sees what *you* get paid as wages, plus your share of profit (when profits are *distributed* or passed through), as \u201cearnings\u201d for SGA. The structure *can* help control how much of the business profit shows up as countable earnings, but can't make your profit invisible. \n\n### Example: S-Corp\n\nLet\u2019s say you form an S-Corp and the business makes **$12,000/month gross**. You pay yourself a \"reasonable salary\" of **$2,500/month**, and the remaining $9,500/month is taken as *distributions*. \n\n- SSA will count your **actual salary** (the $2,500) as wages. \n- They will also consider your share of business profits (distributions) to the extent that they\u2019re considered \u201cincome\u201d from your self-employment or business ownership (depending on tax structure). \n\nIf your total \u201ccountable income\u201d \u2014 salary plus your share of profits \u2014 exceeds the SGA limit for blind persons, that puts you over. \n\n---\n\n## So, Under What Circumstances Can Profits Be \u201cSeparate\u201d?\n\nHere\u2019s when profits can give you more leeway:\n\n- The business is a **C-corporation** or S-corp where you are an employee and the corporation is taxed as such, so you draw a wage. \n- You keep your wage low enough (but still \u201creasonable\u201d per IRS rules) and take most business profit as distribution. \n- The distributions to you are *not* considered wages, so at least a portion of profits may not be counted the same way or might be subject to different analysis (as investment income, unless SSA treats it as part of your business earnings). \n- You document carefully: the structure, payroll ledger, corporate tax returns, and ensure you meet requirements for your chosen entity. \n\n---\n\n## The Catch & Risk\n\n- SSA\u2019s main measure is your **net earnings**, especially for self-employment. If in actuality much of your profit ends up as \u201cpay to you\u201d or distributions that SSA treats as part of your income, they\u2019ll count it. \n- If your business is taxed as a sole proprietorship or partnership, structure doesn\u2019t help \u2014 everything is profit and countable. \n- Corporations bring with them compliance costs, payroll filings, bookkeeping, and must maintain separation between personal and corporate finances. \n- \u201cReasonable salary\u201d is a requirement under IRS and legal rules. If you set the salary artificially low just to dodge earnings, SSA and IRS could challenge it.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can pull up a **structured plan** for your hypothetical scenario: compare how a sole prop vs S-corp vs C-corp would treat the same business gross/net amounts, showing what SSA would count under each. Do you want me to draw that up for your case?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20in%20your%20example%20of%20a%20S%20Corp.%20what%20if%20that%20profit%20just%20remained%20with%20the%20business.%20An%20was%20continually%20reinvested%20as%20such.%20I%27d%20still%20the%20the%20S%20Corp%20and%20could%20cash%20out%20in%20the%20fture%2C%20but%20for%20the%20time%20being%20just%20wanted%20to%20draw%20a%20salary%3F%20Would%20that%20work%3F%20wihout%20vilating%20SGA%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "That\u2019s a smart question, and digging into SSA\u2019s rules shows it\u2019s **unlikely** that you could simply leave all the S-Corp\u2019s profits in the business forever *and* avoid SGA issues \u2014 because SSA cares about what you *earn*, not just what you \u201ctake out.\u201d But the situation is a bit nuanced. Here\u2019s a breakdown.\n\n---\n\n## Key Principle: What SSA Considers \u201cEarnings\u201d for SGA\n\nSSA uses \u201ccountable earnings\u201d to determine if you\u2019re engaged in \u201cSufficient Gainful Activity\u201d (SGA). For blind self-employed people, it\u2019s based strictly on how much *you earn* from the business operations \u2014 not hours, not work details. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/blindrules.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n- **Net earnings from self-employment** = Gross revenue minus all legitimate business expenses. SSA also adjusts it by multiplying by **0.9235** to account for things like employer share of Social Security/Medicare taxes. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505010?utm_source=openai)) \n- Even if profits remain in the business (undistributed), SSA considers them part of your net earnings if *you own/control* the business and it's taxed as a pass-through or in a structure exposing you to them. \n\n---\n\n## How That Applies to an S-Corporation\n\nIn the S-Corp scenario, you\u2019d typically:\n\n- Pay yourself a salary (reasonable compensation) as an employee of the S-Corp. That salary is clearly \u201cearnings.\u201d \n- Let the business make profits that are **passed through** (for tax purposes) to you and taxed on your personal return \u2014 even if profits are retained and not distributed. S-Corp profits *flow-through* to shareholders in proportion to ownership, regardless of whether distributions are made. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/s-corporations?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Would Leaving Profits Undistributed Avoid SGA?\n\nGiven the structure:\n\n- If your S-Corp makes profit, you have to report that profit on your tax return (via flow-through income) \u2014 whether you \u201ctake\u201d it or not. So, even retained profits are \u201cincome\u201d from a tax perspective.\n\n- SSA\u2019s concern is your **net earnings from self-employment**, which include all profits (after business expenses) from the business you own and control. Whether or not you physically take those profits out of the business bank account doesn\u2019t necessarily matter \u2014 SSA looks at what you earn or are entitled to through your ownership, not just what you physically withdraw. \n\n- Salary reduction helps some: You might keep your salary at or below SGA, and leave profits in the business. But since profits pass-through for S-Corp, those profits often count as part of your \u201cearnings\u201d anyway \u2014 SSA will add the flow-through earnings plus salary (adjusted for legitimate deductions) to determine countable earnings.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA\u2019s POMS & Regulation Suggest\n\n- **DI 10505.010 \u2013 Determining Countable Earnings**: SSA treats \u201cearnings\u201d broadly as what you derive from work or business activity, including profit. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505010?utm_source=openai)) \n\n- **CFR \u00a7404.1081 (General rules for figuring net earnings from self-employment)**: It says that if you carry on a trade or business, you must use gross income minus allowable deductions to figure your net earnings. Whether taxable or not, whether distributions are made or retained, if it's taxed as S-Corp or self-employed, your share of share-owner profit gets included for SGA determinations. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1081.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Conclusion: Would That Pure-Salary + Undistributed Profits Strategy Work?\n\nProbably **not fully** \u2014 while leaving profits in the business might somewhat delay or reduce what SSA sees as your \u201ctake home,\u201d SSA is likely to count the flow-through portion of profit (even if undistributed) along with your salary toward SGA.\n\nYou may be able to stay under the SGA threshold for a while, depending on how much profit there is, how many deductions/expenses you have, and how you set up compensation. But:\n\n- If business profits are large and you own the business, SSA will likely consider them in your countable income, even if you don\u2019t draw them out. \n- So drawing only a salary won\u2019t completely insulate you if profits are high and pass-through earnings large.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can run the numbers for a scenario (say an S-Corp with $10,000/month business earnings, paying yourself $2,500/month salary, with various profit retention) and show exactly what SSA would count toward SGA. Do you want me to do that?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20what%20if%20it%20was%20a%20C%20Corp%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "If your business is a **C Corporation**, there *are* circumstances under which leaving profits in the company could reduce how much the Social Security Administration (SSA) counts toward your earnings for SGA. But even with a C-Corp, it depends a lot on exactly how income is structured. Here\u2019s how it would likely work, plus the risks.\n\n---\n\n## How C Corps Work & What SSA Sees\n\nIn a C Corporation:\n\n- The company is a separate legal entity. Its profits are **corporate income**, taxed at the corporate level.\n- If you are an employee, you can pay yourself a salary (a wage), which SSA *does* count as \u201cearnings\u201d for SGA purposes.\n- If the company has profits and you choose **not** to take them as salary or dividends, those profits remain in the company. They\u2019re *not* immediately part of your personal income.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA Usually *Doesn\u2019t* Count\n\nFrom SSA\u2019s rules:\n\n- **Dividends and interest** paid on stock are generally *excluded* from \u201cnet earnings from self-employment.\u201d So if you\u2019re getting dividends *from a C-Corp*, SSA typically doesn\u2019t count them as \u201cearnings\u201d for SGA \u2014 unless you're acting as a dealer in securities or similar exception. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1083.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n- Unrelated investment income (dividends, interest) is less likely to trigger SGA than income from wages or business profits subject to self-employment rules. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10022.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## What SSA *Does* Count\n\n- The **salary** you pay yourself as an employee of the C corp counts fully as earnings. If your salary is above the SGA threshold, that\u2019s a problem. \n- If you receive **bonuses, profit-sharing**, or other compensation tied to corporate profits, those are typically counted (because they\u2019re based on your \u201cown productivity\u201d). ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505010?utm_source=openai)) \n- Profits retained by the company that are *not* distributed or passed through **aren\u2019t** immediately treated as your personal income. However, any portion that gets distributed to you (e.g., dividends) might get examined, depending on context.\n\n---\n\n## So, Would \u201cSalary Only + Retained Profits\u201d Avoid SGA?\n\nPretty likely yes, **better than under a sole prop or S-Corp**, but with caveats:\n\n**What works:**\n\n- You pay yourself a **reasonable salary** that is at or below the SGA limit (for blind individuals, $2,830/month in 2026). \n- Your business profits **stay in the C-Corp** \u2014 you don\u2019t take them as salary or dividends (or those amounts are minimal or timed in a way that in some months they don\u2019t push you over SGA).\n\n**What to watch out for:**\n\n- If the company declares dividends or other benefits to you, SSA may count those depending on whether they\u2019re tied to your productivity or ownership. \n- If SSA audits, they might examine whether your salary is \u201creasonable\u201d \u2014 if your salary is artificially low so that most profits are undistributed just to avoid SGA, that could be scrutinized. \n- Even if retained profits aren\u2019t counted immediately, when they *do* flow to you (through dividends or sale of share), they might trigger issues depending on timing. \n\n---\n\n## Bottom Line\n\nWith a C-Corp:\n\n- It *is possible* to structure things so that only your salary counts toward SGA, and undistributed profits stay with the company \u2014 which improves your chances of staying under the SGA limit. \n- How well this works depends a lot on how you\u2019re actually paid (salary vs. dividends), how much salary you take, and whether your compensation appears reasonable for your role. \n- SSA mostly cares about \u201cearnings\u201d \u2014 wages, compensation for services \u2014 not corporate profits you aren\u2019t getting yet.\n\n---\n\nIf you like, I can build a sample with your earlier numbers (e.g. $10,000 business gross, C-corp, pay you a $2,500/month salary, leave rest in company) and show what SSA would see as your countable earnings for SGA. Want me to run that?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20so%20is%20SGA%2C%20based%20on%20when%20my%20LLC%20started%20or%20does%20it%20mirror%20the%20TAx%20Year%20going%20from%20Jan.-Dec%20Each%20year%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "SGA (Substantial Gainful Activity) isn\u2019t tied to when your LLC started or to your tax\u2010year (Jan-Dec). It\u2019s determined **monthly** (or averaged over monthly periods) based on what you earn each month. Here\u2019s how SSA handles this:\n\n---\n\n## How SSA Determines SGA\n\n- SSA uses a **monthly earnings guideline**: if your countable earnings exceed the SGA limit for any calendar month, that month is considered an SGA month. For blind individuals in 2026, that limit is $2,830/month; for non-blind individuals, $1,690/month. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- SSA assesses **monthly net earnings from self-employment** \u2014 meaning gross business income minus allowable expenses, including business vs. personal expenses and sometimes impairment-related work expenses. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505001?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Averaging & Timing\n\n- If you work in several months, SSA may **average monthly earnings** over the period in which work was done to see if on average you exceed the SGA threshold. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505001?utm_source=openai)) \n- In many situations (especially when evaluating cessation of disability due to work), SSA looks at whether the average monthly earnings over a span of months go over the SGA amount. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410510010?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## LLC Start Date & Tax Year Not Primary Factors\n\n- The **date you formed your LLC** doesn\u2019t by itself shape when SGA applies. What matters is *when you start earning income* and what you earn each month after your disability began or while benefits are under review.\n- The **tax year (Jan-Dec)** is used for tax reporting but for SSA, because they look month-by-month, you can have months in one tax year with no SGA, and months over SGA \u2014 doesn\u2019t depend on the LLC\u2019s formation date or the tax year boundaries. \n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can map this to your specific LLC situation: say your LLC started in March, earnings are X per month, etc., and show which months might hit SGA." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20so%20here%27s%20my%20question%2C%20if%20the%20LLC%20is%20earning%20to%20much%20money%20and%20going%20to%20exceed%20SGA%20based%20on%20a%2012%20Month%20average%3B%20can%20I%20dump%20those%20business%20funds%20prior%20to%20the%20twelth%20month%2C%20into%20something.%20Say%20buy%20the%20company%20a%20new%20piece%20of%20equipment%20or%20something.%20Or%20are%20there%20other%20ways%20to%20handle%20this%2C%20such%20as%20buy%20bonds%20or%20something%2C%20taht%20will%20take%20those%20prfits%20down%20both%20by%20IrS%20and%20SSA%20standards%3B%20which%20for%20our%20purpsoes%20I%27%27m%20thinking%20are%20the%20same." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Good questions. Trying to \u201cdump\u201d profits before the 12th month might sound like a workaround, but both IRS and SSA rules make it more complicated. Here\u2019s a breakdown of whether equipment purchases or other deductions can reduce your SGA count, and what the risks and limits are.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA Uses: Net Earnings + Averaging\n\n- SSA looks at your **net earnings from self-employment**\u2014that\u2019s gross receipts minus all valid business expenses, depreciation, and other deductions per IRS rules. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.12/handbook-1200.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- They consider earnings for each *calendar month* when determining if you\u2019ve exceeded the SGA threshold. If earnings fluctuate, SSA may **average the countable earnings over a period**\u2014often 12 months\u2014if your work is \u201ccontinuous\u201d and there are no big changes in earnings or work pattern. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505015?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## Could Buying Equipment / Other Deductions Help Reduce Countable Earnings?\n\nIn theory, yes\u2014if the cost is a legitimate business expense (or capital asset subject to depreciation), it could reduce net self-employment income, and therefore reduce what SSA sees as your earnings for SGA.\n\n### Valid deductions SSA accepts:\n\n- Ordinary and necessary business expenses (rent, supplies, inventory, repairs) GET deducted in your net earnings calculation. Equipment purchases often depreciated rather than fully expensed at once. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- Depreciation of capital assets (large equipment) can be included in business deductions for tax/self-employment purposes. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1081.htm?utm_source=openai)) \n\n### SSA rules for deductions:\n\n- Only **business expenses** tied to your trade or business are allowed. IRS rules apply. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- You can\u2019t deduct personal expenses or expenses that someone else covers. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-820.html?cm_sp=ExternalLink-_-Federal-_-SSA&utm_source=openai)) \n- Equipment bought must be \u201cbusiness\u2010used\u201d and the depreciation method applied correctly. Instant big writeoffs may be limited depending on IRS rules (e.g., Section 179, bonus depreciation) and state of use. \n\n---\n\n## What the \u201cDump Profits Before Month 12\u201d Strategy Faces in Practice\n\nHere are what to watch out for; it's risky and may not work fully:\n\n1. **Averaging period applies if work is continuous.** \n If your monthly earnings vary but work is relatively continuous with no major changes, SSA can average across up to a 12-month period. So \u201cdumping profits\u201d late in the year could still leave your average earnings high. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505015?utm_source=openai))\n\n2. **Partial months / timing.** \n Deductions have to be \u201cincurred\u201d \u2014 expenses paid or liability established in time. You can\u2019t generally shift profits to another year simply by delaying invoicing, unless correctly structured. Equipment depreciation often spreads over multiple years rather than dropping one year\u2019s profit drastically. \n\n3. **Reasonableness and IRS compliance.** \n If your business spends a lot on \u201cequipment\u201d just to lower profits, the IRS or SSA might examine if the expenses are legitimate, business-use percentage, and whether depreciation is claimed correctly. \n\n4. **Impairment-Related Work Expenses (IRWE).** \n SSA allows certain extra deductions (beyond normal business deductions) if they\u2019re directly related to your impairment and necessary to work. These can reduce countable earnings. But these are special and limited. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505010?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## Practical Takeaways & Possible Strategies\n\nHere are ways people might lower countable earnings legitimately:\n\n- Buy equipment or other assets **needed for your business** before year-end. Use depreciation or Section 179 (if applicable) to get more deduction in the year purchased. \n- Accelerate business expenses: supplies, repairs, maintenance, maybe prepay some expenses (rent, insurance) if permissible. \n- If relevant to your impairment: use IRWEs to deduct special equipment, help, or services needed due to disability. \n- Keep detailed documentation: receipts, invoices, proof of business use, proof equipment is necessary.\n\n---\n\n## Risks & What Cannot Be Done\n\n- You **can\u2019t** shift profit to someone else or artificially delay recognizing income just to avoid SGA if that misrepresents your business performance. \n- SSA will look at tax returns, Schedule C (or business\u2010entity equivalent), depreciation schedules, etc., to compute net earnings. If deductions are questionable, they may be disallowed. \n- Averaging may still show you over SGA for those months collectively\u2014even if individual months are under\u2014if the pattern suggests consistency in work and earning. \n\n---\n\nIf you tell me your approximate monthly profits, expenses, and any planned equipment purchases (cost, timing), I can help you map out whether you could stay under SGA using deductions and how tight the margin is.\u0ccd" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Are%20there%20fiancial%20mechanisms%20I%20coudl%20use%20that%20invest%20the%20companies%20profits%20and%20as%20a%20result%20reduce%20the%20coutable%20profits%20that%20the%20IrS%20considers%20and%20SSA.%20So%20say%2C%20I%27m%20about%20to%20go%20%245k%20over%20SAG%20if%20I%20don%27t%20get%20my%20profits%20down%20by%20the%20end%20of%20a%2012%20month%20SSA%20cycle.%20Coudl%20I%20take%20the%20%245k%20and%20buy%20bonds%20or%20something%2C%20and%20effectively%20push%20off%20the%20profit%20question%20until%20they%20manture%3F%20Or%20perahsp%20buy%20stock%3F" }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Short answer: No, buying stocks or bonds with business profits generally *won\u2019t* reduce how much SSA counts as earnings for Substantial Gainful Activity (SGA). SSA cares about *net earnings from self-employment*, and things like investment income aren\u2019t counted the same way. But there **are** legitimate business deductions or financial strategies that *can* help \u2014 depending on timing, type, and IRS/SSA rules. Here\u2019s how it breaks down.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA *Doesn\u2019t* Count\n\nAccording to SSA rules:\n\n- **Interest and dividends** from capital investments (stocks, bonds, savings) are *not* counted as earnings from self-employment, unless you are in the business of dealing in those securities. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- SSA defines *net earnings from self-employment* as gross business receipts minus all valid business deductions and depreciation, per IRS rules. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10022.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n- They also exclude many kinds of passive income \u2014 real estate rentals (if you're not a \u201creal estate dealer\u201d), investment interest, dividends, etc. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)) \n\nSo, putting business profits into something like bonds or a brokerage account won\u2019t directly reduce the *net earnings* figure used by SSA \u2014 because SSA does *not* treat your investment of profits the same way as a business expense.\n\n---\n\n## Why Buying Investments Doesn\u2019t Generally \u201cLower\u201d Net Self-Employment Earnings\n\n- To reduce SSA-counted earnings, you need **business expenses** \u2014 utilities, equipment, operating costs, wages, business rent, etc. Investments (stocks, bonds) are **not** business expenses. They\u2019re purchases of capital or investments, and not deductible as expenses in the same way. \n- If the corporation buys investments, that might reduce its taxable *income*, but only if structured properly \u2014 and even then, SSA\u2019s calculation focuses on *your share of business profits or self-employment net earnings*, not on your personal investment returns. \n- IRS rules generally don\u2019t allow a business to deduct purchases of investment securities just to reduce profits. Investments can generate income (interest, dividends, capital gains/losses), but purchasing stock doesn\u2019t reduce profits in the year you buy them. If you do incur losses or expenses tied to investment activities, they may or may not be deductible depending on whether the investment is considered part of your trade or business. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p550?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## What *Can* Reduce Countable Profits\n\nHere are some legal, legitimate ways profits can be reduced \u2014 helping with SSA\u2019s net earnings and IRS tax liability:\n\n1. **Buy business assets or equipment** \n If something is necessary for your business, you can purchase equipment, machinery, tools, etc. These are *capital assets*, and you often recover their cost via depreciation or, if eligible, Section 179 or bonus depreciation. This reduces net business income. \n\n2. **Accelerate deductible expenses** \n Pay bills (like rent, insurance, or supplies) before the end of the business year, prepay if legally allowable, etc. \n \n3. **Use retirement or benefit plans** \n If your business is set up in a way that qualifies, you may contribute to retirement plans (like SEP-IRAs, SIMPLE, 401(k)s). Those contributions may reduce net earnings. \n \n4. **Include impairment-related work expenses** \n SSA sometimes allows extra deductions called Impairment-Related Work Expenses (IRWEs) \u2014 expenses you incur due to your disability to work. These can reduce countable earnings if you meet SSA criteria. \n\n---\n\n## Risks & Key Things to Watch Out For\n\n- Be sure any expense or capital purchase is necessary, properly documented, and **ordinary and customary** for your type of business. If SSA or IRS find expenses artificial or excessive, they could disallow them. \n- Timing counts: for depreciation, often you don\u2019t get full benefit immediately. For some equipment, yes (if under Section 179), but many capital assets are depreciated over several years. \n- Averaging: even if you reduce profits late in a 12-month period, SSA may average your monthly net earnings if the work is regular and continuous. It doesn\u2019t hinge on your tax year. \n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can run a mock scenario using your numbers (e.g., you\u2019re projected to be $5,000 over the limit) to simulate what deductions or purchases you could make *legally* to reduce your SSA-countable earnings and whether that would be enough." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20let%27s%20expand%20on%20that%20retirement%20benefits%20mechanism.%20Could%20my%20sole-proprietery%20LLC%20contribute%20to%20my%20Able%20Account%20and%20that%20bring%20the%20companies%20profit%20down%3F%20It%20might%20not%20work%20thought%20not%20sure%20if%20SSA%20would%20consider%20that%20income%20or%20profit%20to%20me%20personally%2C%20I%20mean%20if%20it%20was%20a%20401k%20they%20wouldn%27t%20but%20not%20sure%20about%20Able%20Account%20and%20I%20know%20bunesses%20are%20lmited%20at%20how%20much%20they%20can%20donate%20to." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s what the rules say about ABLE Accounts + whether your sole proprietorship LLC could contribute or otherwise use an ABLE account to reduce countable profits or earnings under Social Security / IRS rules.\n\n---\n\n## What ABLE Accounts Are & Key Rules\n\n- An ABLE account (a \u201c529A\u201d account) is a savings vehicle for individuals who became blind or disabled before age 26. Contributions grow tax-free and distributions for *Qualified Disability Expenses* (QDEs) are also tax-free at the federal level. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/able-savings-accounts-and-other-tax-benefits-for-persons-with-disabilities?utm_source=openai)) \n- Contributions to an ABLE account are **not deductible** for federal income tax purposes. That means depositing money into an ABLE account doesn't reduce your taxable income, unlike many retirement accounts. ([investor.gov](https://www.investor.gov/introduction-investing/general-resources/news-alerts/alerts-bulletins/investor-bulletins/updated-6?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## SSA (AA & SSI / SSDI) Treatment of ABLE-Related Income\n\n- According to SSA rules, contributions **to an ABLE account** are *excluded* from the income of the designated beneficiary (i.e., you, if you're disabled and eligible). But that just means contributions aren't treated as extra income\u2014doesn\u2019t mean earnings are reduced or that any income is \u201cshielded\u201d from countable income for SGA/SSDI or work earnings. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0501130740?utm_source=openai)) \n- If wages or business income are *received* by you, then deposited into ABLE, they are still *income* first. SSA counts what you receive, irrespective of whether you put it in an ABLE account. So depositing them doesn\u2019t avoid them being counted. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0501130740?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Key Distinction: Income vs. Net Profits vs. Resources\n\n- **Countable earnings / net self-employment income** (for SGA / SSDI) are separate from **resources/assets** (which matter for SSI eligibility). ABLE helps with resources/assets (subject to limits), but not with income or earnings. \n- SSA allows ABLE account balances (up to $100,000) to be *excluded* as a resource under SSI rules. But that exclusion doesn\u2019t extend to earnings themselves or what you earn from your business. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0501130740?utm_source=openai)) \n\n---\n\n## Could the LLC Contribute to Your ABLE Account?\n\n- In many state ABLE programs, *any person or entity* (including your business or LLC) can make a **third-party contribution** to someone\u2019s ABLE account. So yes, your LLC **could** contribute **as a third party**. ([iable.gov](https://www.iable.gov/benefits/contributions?utm_source=openai)) \n- But note: that contribution doesn\u2019t reduce your business\u2019 taxable net profit unless it qualifies as a business expense under IRS rules, and in this case, ABLE contributions typically **are not** treated as deductible business expenses. The IRS doesn\u2019t consider ABLE contributions as a deductible fringe benefit or standard business expense. \n\n---\n\n## What That Means in Your Case\n\nPutting this all together:\n\n- If your LLC contributes $5,000 to an ABLE account *on your behalf*, this does *not* reduce your income for SSA\u2019s SGA/SSDI net earnings calculation, because it\u2019s not a business expense. \n- Your income from self-employment will still be counted by SSA as part of your net earnings\u2014even if you immediately move some of it into an ABLE account. \n- The ABLE contributions themselves will be excluded from your income in terms of SSA/SSI \u201cresources\u201d rules (up to certain limits), but *not from earnings* when determining SGA. \n\n---\n\n## What *Might* Work, Legally\n\nIf your goal is to reduce what SSA sees as net self-employment earnings, you\u2019ll need to use **legitimate business deductions or adjustments** \u2014 some strategies include:\n\n- Setting up a **retirement plan**: Works best if your LLC can contribute, say, to a SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA, or solo 401(k). Those contributions *can* reduce net self-employment income when calculating taxes, and SSA bases its net earnings calculation in part on what\u2019s on your tax return (Schedule C or related). \n- Depreciation, business expenses (supplies, equipment, utilities, business travel), or possibly impairment\u2010related work expenses if applicable. \n- Planning timing: making purchases or incurring deductible expenses before the end of SSA\u2019s 12-month averaging period if you expect income to exceed SGA.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can run through a sample using your specific numbers (gross business income, expenses, projected profit, and how much you might contribute to a retirement plan vs ABLE vs expenses) to see which moves might realistically bring you under SGA." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20yes%2C%20lets%27%20work%20the%20problem%20as%20if%20my%20LLC%20ontributes%20to%20a%20401k.%20Or%20if%20easier%20an%20IrA%20Roth." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s a worked example and explanation showing whether contributing to a retirement plan (like a solo-401(k) or SEP IRA) helps you reduce the net self-employment income that SSA counts for SGA, so you overshoot by $5,000 or less. Also the limitations and what you can realistically do.\n\n---\n\n## Key Rules & Definitions First\n\n- **Net earnings from self\u2010employment** (SSA\u2019s basis for counting earnings for SGA/SSDI) = your business gross income minus all valid business expenses and depreciation under IRS rules. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/help/iClaim_sei2.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- For self-employed people, contributions to **qualified retirement plans** *may* reduce taxable income and be deductible for tax, but whether they reduce SSA\u2019s countable net self-employment earnings depends on whether they are considered a deductible *business expense* (in computing net income) or taken as deductions later in AGI. \n\n---\n\n## How Retirement Plan Contributions Work for Self-Employed\n\n**SEP IRA** (simplified employee pension IRA):\n\n- If you\u2019re self-employed, you *can* contribute to your own SEP IRA. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-sponsor/simplified-employee-pension-plan-sep?utm_source=openai)) \n- The deductible contribution (for tax) depends on \u201ccompensation,\u201d which for self-employed people means net earnings from self-employment **after** subtracting both: \n 1. one-half of the self-employment tax, and \n 2. the SEP contribution itself. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-sponsor/simplified-employee-pension-plan-sep?utm_source=openai)) \n- There's a limit: for 2026, the cap is **25% of compensation** (which is net earnings from self-employment adjusted as above), or a maximum monetary cap (for SEP, $72,000 in 2026) ([kiplinger.com](https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/sep-ira/sep-ira-limits?utm_source=openai)).\n\n**Solo 401(k)** or Individual 401(k):\n\n- These allow both \u201cemployee deferral\u201d + \u201cemployer contribution\u201d components. \n- You as the sole proprietor are both the employee (defer some income) and employer (profit-sharing contribution) under this plan. \n- Employee deferrals reduce taxable income, but do **not** reduce self-employment income that SSA uses for calculating net earnings for Social Security taxes. The employer portion also doesn\u2019t reduce net business profit on Schedule C\u2014rather, these components are claimed further downstream. \n\n---\n\n## Does Retirement Contribution Lower SSA\u2019s Countable Earnings for SGA?\n\nShort answer: **Partially, but with limits**. It depends on whether the contribution is counted as a business deduction (affecting net profit on Schedule C) *before* SSA computes \u201cnet earnings from self-employment,\u201d or as an adjustment somewhere later. \n\n- **SEP contributions** *can* reduce net earnings *for tax purposes* because they are deductible and included as deductions when calculating net earnings from self-employment for qualified plan contributions. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p560?utm_source=openai)) \n- But there\u2019s nuance: for SSA\u2019s SGA purposes, SSA uses **net earnings from self-employment**, which includes all allowed business deductions and depreciation *before* applying the .9235 multiplier (to account for SE tax). ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/handbook/handbook.12/handbook-1200.html?utm_source=openai)) \n- If a retirement plan contribution counts among those \u201callowed business deductions,\u201d then yes\u2014it helps reduce what SSA counts. But some retirement contributions are taken elsewhere (i.e. not on Schedule C as an expense) and may *not* reduce the net earnings figure SSA uses.\n\n---\n\n## Sample Scenario: You\u2019re Projected $5,000 Over SGA\n\nLet\u2019s assume:\n\n- Your SGA threshold is (for example) **$1,600 per month**, or ~$19,200/year. Say after business deductions (before retirement plan) your net earnings from self-employment for the 12-month period are $24,200\u2014i.e. $5,000 over threshold. \n- You have until the end of that 12-month SSA evaluation period to make moves to lower the net self-employment income to at most $19,200 (or the monthly equivalent), assuming SSA averages or looks at monthly net earnings.\n\n### Option 1: SEP IRA Contribution\n\n- Suppose you decide to use a SEP IRA and contribute an employer portion based on your adjusted \u201ccompensation.\u201d Let\u2019s say, after reducing for half SE tax etc., you can legitimately deduct **20%** of that compensation. 20% of ~$24,200 \u2248 **$4,840**. \n- If this contribution *is* treated as a deduction before SSA calculates net self-employment earnings, your net moves down from $24,200 to ~$19,360, roughly at the threshold. You\u2019d still be slightly over, unless you also manage some other deductions or expense acceleration.\n\n### Option 2: Solo 401(k) (with Employee Deferral + Employer Portion)\n\n- You might defer, say, $6,500 as \u201cemployee deferral\u201d to your 401(k) (if age < 50) \u2014 that reduces taxable income, but may **not** reduce net self-employment earnings for SSA\u2019s purposes unless those contributions are treated similarly to SEP contributions or \u201cqualified plan\u201d employer contributions. \n- Then add employer portion (profit-sharing) of, say, another few thousand. Combined, maybe you get $7,500 in deductions. That could move your net self-employment income down from $24,200 to ~$16,700, thus safely under.\n\n---\n\n## Important Caveats & SSA Practice Realities\n\n- SSA does *not* generally allow deduction of retirement contributions that person made themselves as \u201cemployee deferrals\u201d in the same way as business expenses. Only those contributions which fit the pattern of \u201ccontributions to your own SEP or qualified plan\u201d are included among deductions when SSA calculates net earnings from self-employment. (As in Publication 560 and IRS rules for SEP) ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p560?utm_source=openai)) \n- Even if you lower net earnings for tax purposes, SSA often looks at net profits reported on your IRS Schedule C (or equivalent) \u2014 so timing (when you make contributions, documentation, whether plan is in place by year-end) matters. \n- The SGA test is monthly, but if work is continuous SSA may average your net annual earnings across months. So you may not get much benefit unless the reduction is enough to lower the **average monthly net earnings** across the period. \n- Also, contributions must be valid under IRS retirement plan rules: plan established properly, contribution made by deadlines, limits not exceeded, no discrimination, etc.\n\n---\n\nIf you like, I can compute a more precise scenario with your exact projected net profit, how much retirement contribution you\u2019re eligible for (SEP vs solo-401(k)), and show whether those alone are enough to pull you under SGA\u2014or how much extra in business expense deductions you'd also need." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%2C%20looking%20online%20are%20there%20any%20examples%20of%20Blind%20people%20navigating%20this%20SGA%20hurdle%20effectively%2C%20so%20that%20their%20business%20income%20was%20treated%20as%20seperate%20from%20their%20income%2C%20so%20the%20business%20could%20grow%20and%20maintain%20liquidity%20while%20they%20drew%20a%20check%20that%20was%20under%20SGA.%20I%27ve%20heard%20of%20some%20people%20having%20the%20business%20in%20their%20spouses%20name%20as%20an%20example.%20Any%20other%20suggestions%20out%20there%2C%20even%20if%20the%20company%20had%20to%20be%20based%20outside%20the%20united%20states." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "I searched extensively and couldn\u2019t find **verified individual examples**\u2014case studies or stories\u2014of blind business owners using strategies like putting the business in their spouse\u2019s name or moving it outside the U.S. specifically to stay under SGA while maintaining profitability. There\u2019s no documented precedent I found that stands out like that in reliable sources. But I found several **related rules, legal interpretations, and policy tools** that *suggest* what strategies *might* be possible, and what risks would be involved. Below are what I found plus what people *do*, based on SSA policy and related IRS rules, and what seems to work or not.\n\n---\n\n## What SSA Policy Says\n\n1. **Special Rules for the Blind & Self-Employment** \n People who are blind have a *higher SGA threshold* than non-blind SSDI recipients. In 2026, that threshold is **$2,830/month** for SSDI based on blindness. SSA considers *only earnings* in self-employment for SGA evaluation\u2014not hours worked or effort alone. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/blindrules.htm?utm_source=openai))\n\n2. **Countable Income & Deductions in Self-Employment** \n When SSA determines if self-employment is SGA for blind persons, it looks at \u201ccountable income.\u201d That means:\n - gross income minus allowable deductions per IRS rules \n - minus things like impairment\u2010related work expenses, unpaid help from spouse or family if significant, etc. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai)) \n SSR 12-1p clarifies that SSA will deduct \u201creasonable value\u201d of unpaid help by spouse or others. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n3. **Blurring Between Spouse Ownership & Reporting** \n IRS rules for married couples in business see two models:\n - If both spouses materially participate and contribute, the business may be a partnership. Each spouse gets an allocated share on a joint return. ([irs.gov](https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/married-couples-in-business?utm_source=openai)) \n - If one spouse \u201cowns\u201d the business but the other helps, the value of unpaid help can sometimes be deducted under SSA rules (for countable income). But ownership alone doesn\u2019t shift responsibility for SGA\u2014the person with blindness must still meet SSA\u2019s tests about countable income from *their own productivity.* ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## What People Do / Try\n\nWhile I found **no clear, published cases** matching exactly what you describe, there *are* practices people use, and discussions online that suggest these ways are considered or tried (though **risky** or uncertain):\n\n- **Spouse performs business work & takes profits** \n Some people suggest having a spouse take on \u201cownership\u201d or reported income, so that the blind person can stay under SSA\u2019s SGA threshold. But this strategy runs up against both tax and SSA rules: \n \u2022 SSA carefully examines \u201csignificant services\u201d by the blind person. If the blind person is doing most of the work\u2014even if they\u2019re not listed as owner\u2014they may be seen as having countable productivity. SSR 12-1p requires that earnings represent the blind person\u2019s productivity. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai)) \n \u2022 IRS and state law considerations: falsely shifting ownership or misrepresenting who worked or benefited could raise legal, tax, and benefits risks.\n\n- **Use of deductions & expenses** \n Many people emphasize maximizing *deductions*\u2014business expenses, impairment-related work expenses, unpaid help, etc.\u2014to lower countable income. These are within SSA rules and are less risky. For example, unpaid help by a spouse or family member can be deducted if valued reasonably, for SSA countable income determination. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n- **Work incentives and PASS / IRWE** \n Work incentives like *Impairment-Related Work Expenses (IRWE)*, *Blind Work Expenses*, or a *Plan to Achieve Self-Support (PASS)* are tools under SSA to exclude certain costs or income/resources under SSI, and sometimes help in SSDI contexts too. These tend to deal more with SSI or resource limits rather than SSDI\u2019s net self-employment earnings, but can help reduce what SSA considers \u201ccountable\u201d in many situations. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/ssdi-and-ssi-employments-supports.htm?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## What Seems Not to Be Practical or Supported\n\n- **Moving business ownership entirely outside the U.S.** to another jurisdiction is complex and doesn\u2019t necessarily affect how SSA views your individual net earnings. If you receive income you control, SSA will likely consider it anyway. Also, tax obligations, legal implications, foreign business compliance, etc., add risk. No examples suggest this works reliably.\n\n- **Claiming \u201cnot owning\u201d the business while running it** is risky: SSA wants to see \u201csignificant services you personally render,\u201d so if you're the main worker or decision-maker, it\u2019s hard to argue you're not owning \u201cenough.\u201d SSRs demand your productivity matter. So simply listing spouse as \u201cowner\u201d while you do the core work may not satisfy SSA. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## Possible Strategies That Could Be Effective\n\nWhile there's no guarantee, the following may **legally** help balance business growth, liquidity, and keeping countable income under SGA:\n\n| Strategy | How It Might Help | Main Challenges / Risks |\n|---|---|---|\n| 1. **Partnership with spouse** | If structured as a partnership or \u201cqualified joint venture,\u201d you may split business income, possibly keeping your share under the SGA threshold while spouse handles other share. Your countable income is what you personally receive for services and profit share. | Must genuinely share work or capital. SSA looks at your productivity. Misrepresentation could lead to loss of benefits or penalties. Must comply with IRS & state rules. |\n| 2. **Unpaid help & documented deductions** | Claiming unpaid help by spouse/family and impairment-related work expenses, reducing countable income. The more valid deductions and documented expenses, the lower your net. | Requires good bookkeeping, plausible valuations. SSA can challenge exaggerated or dubious deductions. It\u2019s still limited by how many deductions you have. |\n| 3. **Work Incentives / PASS (mostly SSI contexts)** | Setting up a PASS or claiming Blind Work Expenses (BWEs) or IRWEs allows you to exclude certain expenses, resources, or income from SSA\u2019s calculations, depending on your benefit type. | These work best with SSI or resource/exclusion rules; less influence over SSDI\u2019s net self-employment income limits. |\n| 4. **Tiered growth of business** | Keep your personal earnings withdrawals or \u201cowner compensation\u201d low\u2014focus on reinvesting profits into business infrastructure, inventory, equipment, etc., that are valid business deductions. | Must align with cash flow needs. Also, reinvestment doesn\u2019t lower countable income unless recognized by IRS and SSA as expense/deduction. Ownership equity growth doesn\u2019t substitute for earnings. |\n\n---\n\n## What You Might Consider Exploring\n\n- Talk to a disability attorney or Social Security disability planning expert to see how cases like yours have worked in your state\u2014because SSA policy interpretations sometimes vary by hearing decision or administrative law judge (ALJ) rulings. \n- If married, see whether a **qualified joint venture** structure (or partnership) is feasible: splitting ownership and earnings could help, if spouse is active. \n- Meticulously document unpaid help, impairment-related expenses. Invest in accounting that confirms expense validity. \n- If you may also qualify under SSI (or have SSI in addition to SSDI), then see how PASS / IRWEs / BWEs could apply to your situation. \n- Before doing anything like putting business in spouse\u2019s name, consult tax counsel: there could be tax, liability, and SSA disclosure implications that carry risk.\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I could try looking for **jurisdiction-specific cases** (state/court decisions) or **legal precedents** showing someone successfully using these strategies. That might give you stronger real-world examples to learn from. Do you want me to pull those up?" }, { "role": "user", "content": "Look%20at%20the%20website%20applevis.com%20and%20look%20for%20a%20iOS%20App%20for%20reading%20and%20writing%20NFC%20tags%20that%20got%20good%20reviews%2C%20provide%20me%20a%20list%20of%20them%20and%20links%20to%20the%20articles." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "Here\u2019s a list of iOS apps mentioned on AppleVis that are good for reading/writing NFC tags, especially for people who are blind or low\u2010vision. For each, I include a summary and a link to the AppleVis article/forum post.\n\n---\n\n## \u2705 Recommended NFC Tag Reader/Writer Apps\n\n| App | What It Does | Highlights from Review | Link |\n|---|---------------|--------------------------|------|\n| **Simply NFC \u2010 Tag Writer/Reader** | Read (and in some cases write via external tools) NFC tags; supports various tag content types (URLs, text, contacts, HomeKit scenes, etc.) | VoiceOver friendly; buttons clearly labeled; most accessible among apps tested; praised by users for handling tag reading well. ([applevis.com](https://applevis.com/apps/ios/utilities/simply-nfc-tag-writerreader?utm_source=openai)) | AppleVis page: **Simply NFC** ([applevis.com](https://applevis.com/apps/ios/utilities/simply-nfc-tag-writerreader?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **Labelo** | Open\u2010source app to manage NFC tags, focused on both reading and writing tag labels | Inclusive design: built with accessibility in mind; getting positive feedback for usability; helpful on-boarding suggested. ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/forum/ios-ipados/labelo-open-source-free-app-managing-nfc-tags?utm_source=openai)) | Forum thread: **Labelo** ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/forum/ios-ipados/labelo-open-source-free-app-managing-nfc-tags?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **WayAround Tag and Scan** | Uses NFC tags (\"WayTags\") to label objects; you can write descriptions, scan to hear what\u2019s written, etc. | Fully accessible with VoiceOver; intuitive UI; needs their tags; very well liked for household labeling. ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/apps/ios/lifestyle/wayaround-tag-and-scan?utm_source=openai)) | App info: **WayAround Tag and Scan** ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/apps/ios/lifestyle/wayaround-tag-and-scan?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **TagCraft** | Record your voice for each object using NFC tags, so when you scan the tag it plays the audio description | Designed from scratch for vision loss; full Apple-VoiceOver support; useful in kitchens, medicine, labeling many objects. ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/apps/ios/lifestyle/tagcraft?utm_source=openai)) | AppleVis listing: **TagCraft** ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/apps/ios/lifestyle/tagcraft?utm_source=openai)) |\n| **VoiceTag** | Attach voice memos to NFC tags: stick the tag, record a voice note, later scan and get the audio back | Fully VoiceOver\u2010compatible; speech\u2010memo mode; burst scanning; planned features; some users want better tag deletion features. ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/comment/202732?utm_source=openai)) | Forum post: **VoiceTag: Label Your Objects with Your Voice Using NFC Tags** ([applevis.com](https://www.applevis.com/comment/202732?utm_source=openai)) |\n\n---\n\nIf you want, I can also check for *video reviews* of these apps, or comparisons between them based on durability, cost of tags, etc.\u2014that might help you pick the best one for your needs." }, { "role": "user", "content": "If%20I%27m%20a%20blind%20SSDI%20receipient%20my%20max%20SGA%20should%20be%20around%20%242800%20a%20month.%20Is%20taht%20a%20net%20or%20gross%20amount%20if%20I%27m%20a%20employee." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "If you\u2019re a blind SSDI recipient, the 2026 SGA (Substantial Gainful Activity) threshold is **$2,830/month**. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?utm_source=openai))\n\nThis threshold refers to **gross earnings**, i.e. before deductions like taxes. SSA compares your *countable earnings*, which are typically your gross wages or income from employment *before* subtracting taxes, to see if they exceed the SGA limit. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410501015?utm_source=openai))\n\nHowever, there are some deductions SSA allows **after** assessing your gross earnings:\n\n- **Impairment\u2010related work expenses (IRWE)** may be subtracted if you need them to work. ([choosework.ssa.gov](https://choosework.ssa.gov/library/fact-sheet-work-incentives-for-people-who-are-blind?utm_source=openai)) \n- Other employment\u2010related supports or allowances might reduce what the SSA considers \u201ccountable earnings.\u201d ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?utm_source=openai))\n\nSo: \n- Your SGA limit is **$2,830/month**, gross. \n- If your gross wages are under this, you\u2019re under SGA. \n- If your gross wages go over, then potential deductions like IRWEs might reduce your countable earnings enough to stay under\u2014if they apply.\n\nIf you want, I can walk you through how to estimate what your countable earnings might be after including any deductions you expect." }, { "role": "user", "content": "Ok%20what%20if%20I%27m%20self-emplyed.%20Is%20that%20still%20net%20or%20does%20my%20business%20taxes%20come%20out%20first." }, { "role": "assistant", "content": "If you\u2019re self-employed and blind, SSA uses your **net earnings from self-employment**, not gross, to decide if you\u2019ve exceeded the SGA limit. Here are the key details:\n\n---\n\n## \ud83c\udfdb SSA Rules on Countable Income for Self-Employment\n\n1. **Countable income** in self-employment is gross revenues minus allowable business expenses; SSA calls this \u201cNet Earnings from Self-Employment (NESE)\u201d. ([workwithoutlimits.org](https://www.workwithoutlimits.org/siteassets/public-benefits-fact-sheets/ssdi-self-employment.pdf?utm_source=openai)) \n \n2. They also deduct **impairment-related work expenses (IRWEs)**\u2014things you need because of your disability\u2014in addition to standard business expenses. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n3. **Unpaid help** from family members or your spouse may be deducted too, if it\u2019s significant and reasonably valued. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/rulings/di/03/SSR2012-01-di-03.html?utm_source=openai))\n\n4. After deductions, what remains is SSA\u2019s \u201ccountable earnings,\u201d which are what they compare to the SGA threshold. If countable earnings exceed SGA, then your self-employment is deemed to reach substantial gainful activity. ([secure.ssa.gov](https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0410505010?utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\n## \ud83d\udc53 For Blind SSDI Recipients Specifically\n\n- The SGA limit for **statutorily blind** individuals is **$2,830/month** in 2026. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/sga.html?src=org_tw_do50&utm_source=openai)) \n- SSA \u201cdecides if work activity is SGA for self-employed people who are blind based solely on their *earnings*.\u201d That means gross doesn\u2019t matter as much\u2014what matters is what you actually *earn* after business expenses and allowable deductions. ([ssa.gov](https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/blindrules.htm?tl=1%2C3&utm_source=openai))\n\n---\n\nIf you like, I can walk you through an example calculation: starting from gross revenue, listing allowable deductions, and seeing if you\u2019d be over $2,830/month countable earnings. Want to do that?" } ]